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September 14, 2011

【4】動機付け面接のトレナー研修@シェフィールド

Day3,
Session10-12

まずはじめに、MIのスキルを維持していく方法についてのディスカッションをしました。その中では、当然、継続的してコーチングを定期的に行っていく、という話も出ました。それから、初日にやったTNTに何を求めるか、について書いたシートを取り出すように指示されて、次に、二人ずつペアとなり、お互いにコーチングをすることとなりました。まず、おのおののMIに関するゴールを決め、6-8週間後に再度コンタクトを取り合うことを前提に、コーチングをしあう、というものです。

それで、B5班では、くじを引いて、ペアを決めることになりました。細かいことですが、そんなことにも、まず、誰かが、ネームバッチを机に出して、混ぜてわからないようにして、またとったらどうか、と意見を出し、いいねえ、となってやってみたら、自分のネームバッチを引く人とか、ペアが全くできない人とか、が発生し、などなど、ごちゃごちゃごちゃごちゃやりながら、基本くじで決まりました。

さて、私の相手は、Heather さんでした。背の高いやややせた威圧感のある女性の心理士です。正直、ちょっとおっかないな、と思いながらも、昨日までの発言で、とてもいいreflect とかaffirming をしていたので、話すのが楽しみでもありました。

私がクライアントの立場から始めました。私のテーマは、いかにして、日本でMIを広げるか、ということだったので、それについて、ああでもない、こうでもない、と話し合い、(あんまりHeatherはコーチングをしているという感じではなく、普通に話を聞いたり意見している感じだった)、昨日のWolfの話も参考にしながら、二つのゴールを設定しました。1.gather materials for doctors. 2.research school nurse’ preference,
1つは、医師向けのエビデンスなどの満載したpaper and pencil の教材。もう1つは養護教諭が、医師タイプ(教材・エビデンス好き)なのか、ソーシャルワーカータイプ(ロールプレイ好き)なのかわからないので、彼女たちの好みをできれば、人気のあるセミナーなども参考に調べる、というものです。

 次に、私がコーチ役をしてHeatherの話を聞きました。そうしたら、彼女の目標も、自分の病院の中でMIを広げるということでした。彼女は部下のたくさんいる(10人以上?)管理職の立場の人で、MIを取り入れたいのだがなかなか進まないというのが悩みのようで、あるとき、講演を頼まれて、よその病院にいったところ、200人くらいいる大きな会場にぎっしりというところに案内され、ところが、参加者のモチベーションも低く、話の途中で、数十人が、椅子をもって会場外に出て行ってしまった。という体験をしていました。そして、いろいろ不満を言われていたようですが、私が印象に残ったことばは、bossy という表現で、ボスみたい、威張ってる、という意味と思います。これは、かなりショックだったろうと思うのですが、事実、私が、It must have been a shock. と返したら、さらに話に熱が入り、会場が狭かったこと、主催者のMIに対する理解がないことなどいろいろ話が出てきました。それで、意外だったのは、参加者が反発したのは、Heather に対してだけではなく、そういうもろもろのこともあって、Heather への反発はその一部じゃないかなあ、といったら、「そうそう、それはもちろんそうに決まってるのよ」と意外と、元気だったということです。

 さて、Heather の作戦について考える途中、いろんな横道にもそれ、彼女はTNTに、MIを病院に伝達するためという理由で予算を取ってイギリスまでアメリカから来ていること(ことあとオバマの話を少々)、そうしたら、来年、彼女のすんでいるところから車で4時間のところで同様の研修が予定されていることにあとから気づいたこと。そこで、私が、思わず、顔を寄せて、Secret! というと、彼女もしっかりそのことは病院には秘密にしているようで、大爆笑になりました。などなど、いろいろやり取りをして、ポイントとしては、1.set up practice group, 2.set up seminars がgoal その際に、CME(continuing medication education) 専門職のポイント制のようなものか?の講座としても受けられるようにする、などがトライする目標として決まりました。私は、アディクションの部門以外の参加者を募る、という話になったときに、そこから、母数が増えれば、MIに関心のある人も増えるので、助けてくれる人も出てくるのでは、というような気づきも起こしたかったのですが、(あんまり身近にサポート役がいる様子がなかったので)、そちらには興味が向かず、CMEのほうの話に進んでいきました。

 さて、このコーチングのセッションのまとめの質疑応答をB全体でしているときに、Heather は私のことを取り上げて、何か、助けになった、というようなことを発言してくれたのですが、残念ながら、それは、よく聞き取れずに、わからなくなってしまいました。

このセッションは全体で2コマ2時間だったので、お互いのコーチングを少なくとも30-40分くらいはしたと思うのですが(そんなにしたかなあ20-30分くらいの気がする)、それまでの中で一番消耗しましたが、二人で大笑いしたりして、大変楽しい体験ともなりました。あと彼女の言葉で印象的だったのは、なぜ日本でMIが普及していないのか、ということころで、私が、やはり、言葉の問題だろうと。もちろんこの時代なのでたくさんの本が訳されているが、逆に、本が訳されていることで、日本人はそれがすべてだと勘違いしてしまう。ところが、実際には、CBTの本はものすごくたくさんあるのに、MIの本は3冊しか訳されていない。それで、CBTに埋もれてしまっているんだよ、と説明したところ、”CBT rule the world” と返事してきたことです。アメリカでもCBTに支配されていると感じるのかなと思いました。Heather以外にも、Wolf や Jojiもそうですが、CBTを習ったけど人間関係の部分が物足りなくてMIにきた、という人に何人かあったので、現在は、日本もCBTに支配されている状況になりつつあるので、そこから、MIに移動する人も出てくるということも起こるかもと思いました。


そのあと、Bill and Steve Visit の前までの空き時間に、何を扱うかの相談をして、Maintenance individual skills, how to role play, getting start with business, how to say “this is no MI”などのアイデアが出ました。
その後は、例によって、三人のトレーナーたちがファシリテーターをしながらディスカッションをしたのですが、ここではあまり記憶に残ることはなく、(そもそも、会話についていけなかった&忘れかかっている:早くも一週間たってしまった)ノートの断片的なメモをてがかりに再現してみます。

 ビジネスプランについては、まず、トレーナーが、MIでビジネスをするのに必要なものは?と会場に投げかけると、まず、Networking という声が上がり、次に、実際に起業しているという人から、Having a business plan との意見が続きました。そして、そのあとは、ネットワークの意味とか、プランの意味とか、の議論に入っていきました。はじめは主に、MIをするコーチとして個人としてクライアントをとりビジネスにするというようなイメージで、議論が始まり、私は、トレーナーたちはこの微妙なテーマに、あくまでまじめに丁寧に議論を進めていくのだなあ、と感心していました。実際には例えば、グループでMIを提供したほうが安くなるが、その場合のポイントは、What problem is target という姿勢で、グループでのMIは、ほとんどのMINTメンバーは、One to one MIをグループでやることで、グループ間でのインターラクションはさせない、というような議論が記憶に残っています。そのうち、れいの起業をしている人から、彼は、体も大きく、声も大きく、いかにもという感じがしましたが、彼が、自分の属している、何とかという町の?ネットワークを紹介し、そこに入ればいいんだよ!そこで、実際に自分はいくつものすばらしい人と出会い、プランを実現することができていっているよ、そこは、各分野のトップ1%の人しか属することのできない、本当にすばらしいネットワークで、云々と、話し始め、ちょっと方向性が違う?という感じになったときに、で、君は、MIでトップ1%に入っている、てことかい?という突込みが出て、彼は、勢いがそがれてしまいました。もちろん、そのコミュニティの中では、トップ1%なんだよ、というような反論を続けたりしていましたが。しかし、結局その直後に、いったいいつまで、このテーマを扱うんだ、単なるコミュニケーションの話じゃないか、MIとどういう関係があるんだ、という意見がニューヨークの心理士?から出て、(彼は、TNTの一番初めから、時々率直かつ辛らつな意見をトレーナーたちにぶつけていました)次のテーマに移ることになりました。

 ただ、ビジネスの話の中では、MIの特徴として、human relation の話が常に繰り返され、People buy MI, I give MI. というような代物ではないんだ、とか、Joel は オレはMIを売っているんじゃなくて、自分を売っているんだ、MIのマニュアルや、資料はネット上をはじめ、みんな無料でオープンに手に入るし、What selling it’ me.
2日間の研修をすれば、こんなふうになります、こんな結果が得られます、というふうには、行かないんだ、IT doesn’t happen that way. というように、MIを「商品」として扱うことの誤りを指摘していたので、このディスカッションも、MI的に、いろいろ参加者から意見を引き出しつつ、自分で気づかせる方向へ持っていく、というスタンスなのかなと感じました。

 あと、スキルのメンテナンスについては、テレビドラマのDVDを使って、ストップとプレイを繰り返して、Reflective listening の練習をする、というのをIgor が、私はまじめに言ってるんですよ、とすすめていたことが印象に残っています。

 How to say ”This is not MI” については、Wolfが、そもそも、一番初めの段階で、MIに関して、こう説明することが肝心と話しました。It’s a complex method. It’s quite natural to make failures. If you are not interested in language it is not for you. If you agree I coach you. つまり、はじめからMIについて、難しくてすぐにはできるようにならないスキルだけれども、とはっきりさせてから、コーチをスタートすることが肝心ということです。そして、最初のワークショップの後、もどったら、1つだけ、これをやってみてください。例えばreflection と課題を出して、次のときにそれを聞く、そして進歩があるか見ていく、というやり方がよいということでした。知っているということと、やれるということは別ですから。


Session 12
Bill and Steve Visit
そして、スケジュールの変更を伴いつつ、昼休みの前の時間に、ミラー先生とロルニック先生が現れて、ミニレクチャーが行われました。その直前の休憩のときに、やややせた背の高めの見慣れない人がいるなと、気づいたのですが、ごく自然に振舞われていて、やわらかい雰囲気で周囲に溶け込んでいたので、ミラー先生その人だとは全く気づきませんでした。ロルニック先生のほうは、目つきのするどいがっちりした体格の中肉中背の男性で、何か意志のかたまり、という感じを受けました。

 さて、ミラー先生はトレナーの方々から短く紹介をうけると、早速資料のプリントを自分で配り始めました。ということで、私は例によって前のほうに座っていたので、ミラー先生から直接プリントを受け取りました!
プリントはA4一枚のシンプルなもので、レクチャーはそのなかから、さらにポイントを絞って行われました。
なにぶん新しい概念の説明なので、私の理解が大丈夫かは微妙ですが、印象的な説明だと感じたところを中心に振り返って見ます。

MI spirit の中の Compassion について。
 セールスマンがものを売ることを思い浮かべて欲しい。必要なときにそばにいることが必要ですよね。そしてその一方で、MIはよくレスリングではなくダンスにたとえられるが、なぜあなたはダンスをしているかが大切なのです。決断についての中立性が大切となります。たとえ偶然にであってもそれが損なわれないように。(これは後から、ロルニック先生が、MIをspiritを伴わないツールとして扱う本やビジネスがあることを指摘し、MIは本来そういうものではないし、そういうことがおきたことを踏まえてcompassion を強調していると補っていました。)

 MIの定義について、三つのレベルの定義をしていますが、読んでいただくと、behavior という言葉が取り除かれていることに気づくでしょう。それは、internal processが重要だからです。外見からは、なんら変化がなかったとしても、無関心期、つまりアンビバレンスもない状態だった人が、内面の変化により、関心期に移ったとしたら、これはchange のステップを進んだことになります。そして、MIはこのステップをも対象として含むのです。それで、behavior という言葉を取り去りました。Change is broader than behavior change. ということです。

四つのプロセスという概念を導入しました。これは従来の四つのprinciples と 二つのphases を置き換えるもので、Engaging, Focusing, Evoking and Planning です。この四つは、順に積み重なるようになって変化へと向かっていきます。特にEngagingは人間関係の基礎となる部分です。そして特定の領域にfocus し、Evoking へとすすむ。これは、従来の developing discrepancy より広い意味です。というのは、discrepancy がない場合(無関心期)それを引き起こすことも、MIには含まれるからです。なので、Evoking というのは、evoking ambivalence と develop discrepancy の両者を含むこととなります。それに対応して、resistance は、ambivalence の中で生まれるsustain talk と、relationship のなかでのdiscord の二つに分けて考えることとなります。Discord というのは、ambivalence が解消した後にも、まだ燃え残ってくすぶっている火のようなもので、relationship のなかからうまれ、基本的には You don’t know me. ということで、お互いに、盲人がelephantをどう表現するか、のたとえのようなものです。

そのあと、質問の時間となりました。最初に出た質問は、スウェーデンからきたスキンヘッドの男性の、compassion について例をあげて説明してください、というものでした。それに対し、
Empathy is skill. Learnable. Sympathy is not required. Compassion is unintention like the Dalai Lama, Lui Airmstrong(?) という返事でした。さらに、Compassion はどうやって学ぶのか?という質問が続いて、ミラー先生は穏やかに答えを続けたのですが、自分にはよくわかりませんでした。会場もなんとなくそんな雰囲気だったように感じられたのですが、そのとき、自分のグループのLucia が “In Buddhist book!” とグループの皆にささやきました。私はそうだったんだ、と納得しつつも驚いて、思わず聞き取り間違いでないか確認したくて、振り向いて、”You said Buddhist book?” と尋ねたら、Yes! ということだったので、きっと、ミラー先生の周囲では、そういうやり取りが既にあったのではと思いました。その後もいろいろやり取りがありましたが、自分はこの件で非常に感銘を受けたので(一応私も、少林寺拳法の修行をするBuddhist なので)あまり印象に残っていません。

この日のランチは、イギリスから来た、MITYのスコアをつける仕事をしている女性と加濃先生と食べました。彼女は確か大学院?で勉強しながら、特殊なスキルのトレーニングを受けた後、アルバイトでスコアをつける仕事をしており、20分のオーディオテープを一日に4-5本くらいつけているということでした。イギリスと、日本の医療制度の違いなどの話題が出ました。加濃先生は、CBTが日本で保険診療になったことを紹介しました。


Session 13
Design your own exercise

そのあと、いよいよ、新しい演習を考える、という演習に入りました。
実はこの演習に備えて、加濃先生は日本から、私も、台風で欠航となった晩に羽田のそばでとまったホテルがコンピューターが使えたので、そこで、もともと考えてあったアイデア(Why is the kid crying? )を文章にしてUSBに入れて持ってきていました。そして、それをシェフィールドのホテルのコンピューターとプリンターを借りて、人数分12枚印刷して用意してありました。ただ、日の目をみるかなあ・・・という気分でした。
 さて、トレーナーたちは、すべてのグループに、それぞれの課題を用意していました。私のところは、
How to initiate change talk? というテーマでした。バックアップとして、How to complex reflection? というのもありました。

 Martha はたちどころに、complex reflection を捨て去りました。皆同調しました。私の考えていたWhy is the kid crying? はcomplex reflection の演習といえなくもないのですがかなり無理があるので、この案を提案することはあきらめました。
 さて、How to initiate change talk? とテーマは決まり、いよいよです。まず、Marthaが、Change talk の定義をマニュアルで確認し、ついでにチェンジトークを導く10の戦略も確認しました。そして、どうするか、となったのですが、Heatherが、自分の臨床体験として、紙に分かれ道の図を書いたものを作って、変化を起こすか起こさないかで、それぞれどうなるか、詳しく聞いていると、チェンジトークが出てくるという案を出しました。それで、この案をいろいろ議論したのですが、クライアントのためのものではなく、カウンセラーを育てるための演習だ、ということを何度も確認しつつ、つまり、この分かれ道シートの使い方の演習にすればよいのだ、という話になり、ちょっと道が開けたようにもなりましたが、途中から香港のPaulが、カードゲームを使った演習はどうか、と提案をして、その内容は自分にはほとんど理解できませんでした。たぶん、日本で言う遊戯王ゲームみたいなものを考えているのかなとは想像しましたが。グループの人たちもいったんそちらへ流れかけたのですが、また、よくわからなくなって、結局、分かれ道ゲームに戻ってきました。ここまでで、かなり時間も過ぎていたので、とにかく休憩をすることになりました。休憩中Ivo とたまたま話したのですが、お互いに、分かれ道ゲームは複雑でだよな、ということになり、議論がどうなるか見てみよう、ということになりました。

 続きはまた分かれ道ゲームを軸に始まったのですが、それまでほとんど発言していなかったAlexが、非常に控えめに、魚釣りゲームはどうか、と言い出しました。それは非常に単純なゲームで、トレーニーは釣り人になって、糸をたれ、つまり、質問を投げ、クライアント役がチェンジトークを答えたら魚が取れた!というものです。それで、皆こんどはそれがいいということになって、具体的につめようとして、例えば10のチェンジトークを引き出す戦略をカードに書いておいて、それを使ってとか、いろいろ案が出たのですが、まずはやってみようということになり、はじめてみたら、立て続けに質問が出ることになってしまい、あまりにも不自然だ、とまた困ってしまいました。それで、私は質問の後にreflect をはさむようにすれば、不自然じゃなくなるよ、と提案しました。例えば、1つの質問の後に二つのreflectをするようにしては?ということです。かなり熱くなっている人もいて、話すのにまごついていたら、Alexが、TAK(私のこと)の話も聞こうよ、とサポートしてくれ助かりました。私の意見に対しては、Luciaが、それはいい、なぜなら、質問と聞き返しは、1:2になるのがいいという基準があるんだよ、と私に教えてくれました。もちろん知っててそういっているのですが(^^)。しかし、このアイデアも面倒くさいという感じで、なんとなく、流れてしまい、その後もごちゃごちゃ議論していましたが、結局、分かれ道と、魚釣りで選挙しよう、ということになりました。それで、選挙用紙を用意する人も出ましたが、まあ挙手でいいじゃん、ということになり、挙手をしたら、(私は魚釣り) 魚釣りのほうがやや優勢で魚釣りになりました。ところが、そうこうしているうちに(皆で釣竿を作って、糸をたらそう、そして魚役がつかんで、放射状の網ができたら完成とか、チェンジトークを引き出す戦略の表を使ったものから消していくとか、魚がつれたら、首から提げるバッチをあげるとか、いろいろアイデアが出ましたが)話し合いの時間がどんどんなくなってきて、本当に収拾がつかなくなってきました。そしたら、Dolorsが、自分の黄色いノートの紙を魚の形にちぎって10くらいまとめて作り、これを魚ということにして、つれたら渡すのはどうか、となり、皆それが気に入って、そうすることになりました。それで、魚役(クライアント役)を決めることになりました。誰か?というこではじめはLuciaがやりたいと言い出しましたが、変化したいことが、転職、ということで、軽くリハーサルをしてみると、このテーマだと何がチェンジトークなのかとかわかりにくくなると判明し、Heatherが、もっと運動をする、というテーマで魚をすることになりました。議論は、Heather, Linda, Martha, Luciaがもっとも活発に発言して、他の人もけっこうタイミングよくいろいろなことを言いました。議論が早くなってくると全くついていけない時間帯も結構あって残念でした。

さて、発表が始まりました。最初のグループの発表のことは、ノートもなく覚えもなく、忘れてしまいました。二つ目のグループは、クライアントの変化に向けてのreadiness を推測するというゲームを考えました。三人が三つの並んだ椅子に座り、相対して四人のトレーニーが並び、いろいろな質問を投げかけて、その結果から、三人のうち、誰が、最も準備性があり、中くらいは誰で、最も少ないのは誰か、というのを当てるというものです。

 次のグループは、一般の中から6人ボランティアを募って、その人たちを部屋の外へ連れて行き、中での会話が聞こえないようにした上で、待ち受けるほうは二つのグループに分かれて、そこに出た6人を三人三人のふたグループにして、部屋の中に招き入れました。入ってきたとき、その人たちは、目隠しをされて入ってきて、1つのグループは、肩をつかまれて、こっちへ来いと何も聞かされずに、自分の椅子まで(扉から一番遠い席の人たちがボランティアに選ばれていました)連行されました。もう1つの三人組は、自分の席まで戻りましょうね、案内しますからね、と声をかけながら、手をとってやさしく案内をされました。

 その様子を見て、非常にダイナミックで、とくに乱暴に扱われるほうはややショッキングなくらい印象的でした。引っ張られながら座らされたアフリカ系のアメリカ人が、ここは私の椅子じゃないし、といったので(隣の席だった)大笑いになりました。感想を聞くところでは、目隠しして、手を引っ張られただけで、もう本能的に、思わず手を引いて、defensiveになった、という発言があって、directing なスタイルだと、思わずいやだ、といいたくなるのも同じなのかも、と印象に残りました。

 さて、その次が、私たちの番でした。ファシリテーター役は、Alexが勤めることとなりました。私はいささか、グループとしては準備不足で心配だったのですが、Alexはつり、というのは、魚をともめて、あっちこっちするよね、それがちょうどねMIのやり方と一緒なんだよ、失敗はふつう、違うことをやる、つまり釣り場をかえてみたりする、ということだよね、みたいなイントロをしていました。

 さて、Pat がHeatherにそれで、あなたの迷っていることは?とたずねて、もっと運動したいという話しが話されて、つりが始まりました。自分たちは一列になって横に並び釣り人役です。Heather は背の高い女性で、その人がズイッと面と向かってやってくるとかなりの迫力があります。誰のところに来るかは彼女の自由です。最初の人が「なぜ運動したいの?」と聞いてチェンジトークが出てきて、魚をもらって、その次の人は質問は忘れてしまったけれど、つれなくて、という感じで、私のところにも来て、自分はどのくらい大事なの?と聞いたのですが、Heather はじっと考えて、大事は大事だけど、という感じで、魚はもらえませんでした。という感じで、どんどんすすんで、もらえたりもらえなかったりで、もらえても笑い、もらえなくても、笑いが出る、魚がくるかも、という緊張感もあるけれどよし今度来たらつってやるぞ、というやる気もおきる、なかなかよい演習だ、とやってみて気づきました。魚がどこに来るかわからないので、ずっとやり取りに集中してしまうからです。

 さて、まあ、この辺でという合図は、Alexがすることになっていたのですが、かれは結構粘って、そろそろというときに後二人、という指示で、終了となりました。皆満足でした。まとめのLinda の説明も最高でした。魚は釣れても釣れなくても、いろいろやってみることが大事ですよね、というまとめです。

 Ralf は短いコメントの後、Heatherに「あなた魚役を楽しんでたでしょ」と突っ込みました。確かに、Heatherは、誰にしようかな~、と楽しんでたのはまちがいなく、参加者はどきどきはらはらし、それを見ていた観客もそれが面白かったのはまちがいありません。そして、Ralfは、一番よくできた演習について、”The last is the best!”
と発表し、自分たちは大喜びしました。特に、Martha とLinda、もちろん、Alexもうれしかったと思います。

 この段階でほとんど時間がなくなっていて、終了証を1人ずつ渡してくれたのですが、その途中で、うちのグループでは、SueとDolor は先にもらって退席しました。時間のある人はそのまま残って、写真を撮ったりLinda がパソコンでFacebook のグループをつくるので、メールのアドレスを教えたりしていました。

その後いったん宿に戻って、7:30から、お祝いのパーティーがありました。そこで印象が残っているのは、Joji Suzuki がどうしてMIに興味をもったのか、ということ、はじめは授業であったのに、こんなのサイコセラピーじゃないとおもって、やっていなかったが、精神科にすすんで四年後、患者との関係がいまいちうまくいかないなあ、とかんじて、MIのことを思い出して、あらためて習い始めた、ということでした。彼は、私と加濃先生に、医学生に教える機会はあるか?と尋ね、なぜなら、医者になってからだと、もうおそい、医学生のうちなら興味を持ってくれる、と話していたので、かれは、四年後だったけれど、not too late だったのだな、といっておきました。指導教授の先生もこられていたので、その先生は四年間待ったわけですね。

 Pat は奥さんときていました。Alex はまだ二日前に歩き始めたばかりの娘さんときていました。どんどん歩いていこうとするのをAlexが両手をとって、ひっぱつていて、とてもかわいかった。Paul も伝い歩きの子どもがあるようで、スマートフォンをしょっちゅう見ていて、写真を見せてくれました。そっそくりでした。寝返りしたときには感動したよね、と話しました。原井先生も息子さんを連れて登場しました。いきなり、スーツケースがしまらなくなっていて、会場でスーツケースと格闘していました。息子さんと前日大英博物館を見に行ったそうです。私はPaulを原井先生に紹介したのですが、そしたらすかさず、息子さんに中国をならっているので、しゃべってみて、といって、かれは中国語で挨拶しました。ずごいです。原井先生は、ミラー先生に、これで日本人トレーナーも増えてきたし、2013年とか、日本でTNTをやるとか、次の段階へ行きたい、と話しておられました。小畔先生はやどでつかれて寝ていました。でもWSで、日本女性のMITIeeがいたよね、と何度もたずねられて、Miyakoと答えると、どの人もうれしそうにしました。

 私と加濃先生は宿に帰ると、いろいろな感想を話しました。加濃先生は、三日間くらいの食事とかもしっかり出してある程度の料金も取るちゃんとした研修をやりたいなあ、という気持ちを持ったようで、私も同感で、たとえば、三浦半島にある湘南国際村センターなんてどうかなあ、と二人で、遅くまで、インターネットを見たりしていました。

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